symbols are not the thing that they represent

[miriam_e]

There is a bit of stupidity being blown out of proportion at the moment by our creepy little prime minister John Howard. The Big Day Out people don't want people to bring flags to the event because of the way they can be used by thugs and bullies to dominate and antagonise others... the way racists produced the Cronulla riots. So what does our nasty PM do? He gets in on the act in typical divisive fashion to make out that the Australian flag is something special, almost holy. Yes, he is using it to divide, antagonise, and bully. This is exactly the kind of behavior the Big Day Out people wanted to avoid!

Howard is such a fool if he believes his rhetoric. Flags are nothing but fairly empty symbols. If someone tears up, burns, a symbol it doesn't affect the original thing. He is one of those kind of bullies that indulged in the race riots.

What passes for mass media here in Australia cravenly scurries after him, lapping it up, fostering the division of course... and they wonder why people are getting sick of them. They remind me of Gollum in Lord of the Rings, but without his charisma.

Comments

[radargrrl.livejournal.com]

I'll bite...what's the Big Day Out?

[(Anonymous)]

It's a yearly rock music festival held here in Australia.
http://www.bigdayout.com/
(The mouse becomes some teeth. Move it over the worm and click. Ummm... that will make sense at the page. :)

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100% on the symbol vs reality issue. We have the same stupid shit going on here in the U.S. I've often told people that if the government doesn't allow us to burn its symbol, the only thing left to burn is the government itself. What do you prefer?

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Heheheh :) I'm not sure it is an either/or thing, but yes, that is it in a nutshell.

Yep. Nationalistic pride is not a good thing; it is a disease that has caused probably as much misery, death and destruction as racism and religion. In fact the three have at their core the same kind of us/them divisiveness.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Oops! That anonymous post was me, posting from my folks' place yesterday.

[lilygoat.livejournal.com]

I think it's possible to have pride without feeling that other countries are less worthy... but then, I also believe that communism, in theory, could still work if we had the right people running it ;)

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

I don't think nationalistic pride is always a bad thing. I don't think there are many things in this world that are always good or always bad. Not even religion, which I know you think is always bad. I think you have to look at each situation and the circumstances surounding it to know if something is being used in a good or bad way. When nationalistic pride is used to put a man on the moon, it's probably a good thing. When it's used to demonize our fellow citizens and restrict their freedom, it's definitely a bad thing.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

:) My kneejerk reaction was to immediately respond that No, nationalism is always bad, but your example of putting a man on the moon hits me in one of my soft spots, so I'm going to have to think on that for a while.

I have a feeling that the answer is something like "being right for the wrong reasons deserves no credit". By that I mean, doing something awesome like going to the moon, but doing it because you hate and fear some other people is still a bad thing.

But you have given me something to think about. I need to ponder this one. Thanks. I like finding that I may be wrong. (I'm not kidding. It genuinely gives me a thrill.)

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Perhaps some rare people can feel pride in their imaginary country without feeling some kind of disregard for other random bunches of people who just happen to share different land masses, but I think most people just can't do that. In some ways our species has a surprisingly ugly pettiness to it. It is almost as if we look for things we can use to pit each against the other. For instance, imagine how absurd it is that many people hate others for the kind of pigment in their skin, or for who they love! When it comes to hating or belittling people in far off lands, well that is just way too easy.

I'm not too sure about communism. I don't think there has ever been a real example of communism. Anarchy comes the closest, but always some bugger steps up and decides he can take control. Then it becomes either a dictatorship or a corporation. The USSR, in my view, was never a communist country. It was one big monopoly -- a single big corporation. Do you get to elect your boss? Why is a monopoly so dangerous? It is for the same reason the USSR was so uncomfortable to live in.

A friend told me a great joke the other day. He said he went to a meeting of the Anarchists Society, but it was too chaotic so he didn't bother going again. He then revealed that he had never actually been to a meeting of any anarchists -- it was simply a joke as told to him by a friend. I thought it was kinda neat. Although I must admit some of my favorite clubs have no leaders. The fact that they are unstructured and spontaneous (not boring) is precisely what I love most about them.

[lilygoat.livejournal.com]

They started a group for agoraphobics...
Nobody showed.


The procrastinator's meeting has been pushed back again.


The meeting for people dealing with OCD was held sixteen times today, and will continue until we're sure we've had it.

[lilygoat.livejournal.com]

On a related note-

Did you hear about the dyslexic atheist insomniac?
He stayed up all night, wondering if there really was a dog.

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

I haven't commented much in your journal lately, but that doesn't mean I don't read it. I've read enough of what you've written to know that man on the moon comment would make you think.

I know what you mean about sometimes finding it pleasant to be wrong. Occasionally being wrong for one proves that you are human and second proves that you are still thinking enough to spot your own errors.

I still think there aren't many absolutes in this world. I don't know if I've ever seen anything that is all good or all bad. I think you have to judge things and people on an indivudual basis. The only person who seems to be always bad and always wrong to me is George W Bush. Ha ha. No, but really, I'm sure even that rat bastard has a good quality here or there, but the fact of the matter is that 99.99% of his actions are stupid and evil and far outweigh any good qualities that he may posses. I'm sure he loves his daughters, that's a good quality, but that's about the only good thing I might be able to say about him.

I also thinks it's a good excercize to occasionally try to find something good about even our most hated enemies. Bush makes that a HUGE challenge for me.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

heheheh :D I love these.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

hahahahah I laughed aloud when I read this one. Very clever. :)

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Yes. I have always felt that no person is all good or all bad. You can find good in almost anyone, and the reverse too. Likewise, I generally try to find the silver lining in any cloud. But I can't help feeling that there are some systems of behavior that are so overwhelmingly bad that they have few redeeming features. Nationalism is one of those. Religion is another. Racism is another. It is difficult for me to think of any situation where good comes out of any of those. I still haven't come to a conclusion about your man-on-the-moon point, though I have a horrible suspicion that you may be right. :) Still, that doesn't mean nationalism is not terrible. It just means that even something that wrongheaded and awful can occasionally produce some good.

It may be difficult for you over there to see it (and I don't mean to sound offensive here), but films and books from USA are bewildering to people in other parts of the world. They are utterly saturated with nationalistic fervor and propaganda, to an astonishing degree. It is hard to imagine what it would be like growing up with that degree of flag-waving constantly drummed in. I am often amazed at the freedom of thinking exhibited by some of my friends in USA in spite of all that... but even then, there is still somewhere you're not allowed to go, where the concept of USA is sacred, and I find that worrying. It scares me that Australia has recently started down the same dark path.

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

I think I may have told you before I was raised catholic, but rejected the faith in my early teens. I went to a catholic school and I recieved such a good education that they actually gave me the intellectual tools to doubt the faith. I think that's a good thing. When my mother had to go on welfare because my dad kept beating the shit out of her, we had a lot of food donated to us by the church, that was good too. And there wasn't anyone pulling our arms to get us to come to mass in exchange for our taking their food. I truly believe the food was given out of the goodness of their hearts and they were actually listening to their religion when it told them to take care of the poor.

No offense taken by what you said about the U.S. I've often despised this country myself for those very things.

Over all I agree with you that MOST of the time nationalism is bad, religion too. But there is some good there too, even though it can be very hard to find sometimes. I will never forget those people who fed us back in our welfare days and I'm very thankful for that. I don't know if they would have been so generous if their religion hadn't told them to be. I find the message of most major religions to be good, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The problem lies with the lying, evil bastards who distort that message into, "kill everyone who doesn't believe as we do."

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting point about Catholic education and religious charities. My oldest, best friend feels the same way about his Catholic upbringing. He feels it equipped him the mental toolset to become an intelligent atheist.

The problem with this is that it ignores the fact that you can just as easily grow up with a secular education, but without the risk of poisoning the mind with religion. Does a mousetrap qualify as part good because of its cheese?

I also understand the temptation to think religion is involved in charity, given how they trumpet it so. But so are non-religious people (like myself). There is religion and there is charity. As far as I can see, they are totally separate items. Take away the religion and you still have charity, therefore I don't think charity qualifies as a good aspect of religion. It is simply something that people do. Sometimes they are religious, sometimes they're not. I don't think it has anything to do with religion, just like I don't think it has anything to do with atheism.

I don't see the message of most major religions as being do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Such a morality is simple good sense and practised by most sane people, religious or not, and is actually negatively correlated with religion.
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Considering how religion likes to take the credit for all the good in society it is perhaps surprising that in actual fact the reverse is true. The research cited above clearly shows that the major ills of society are directly related to and worsened by religion. The more religion, the more dysfunctional a society is. Murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity, teen pregnancy, divorce, violence, child mortality, shortened lifespan, sexually transmitted disease -- they all correlate directly with religion.

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

I do agree with most of what you say, but I also disagree with some of your points. But I won't belabor it any further, since were on the same page most of the time anyway.

Good discussion. Thanks

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

(Oops. Sorry. I tend to get a bit carried away. As you say, we are pretty-much of a similar mind anyway. Truth be told, I wasn't trying to convince you so much as using the discussion to clarify points to myself. Thanks for being patient with my thick head.)

[slave-driver.livejournal.com]

Not a problem, I enjoy a good debate.