wrong knowledge

[miriam_e]

I have a lovely friend who phoned me up last night to tell me excitedly about a way to deal with my infection. She told me about medieval medical explanations of illness that have been disproven hundreds of years ago. Further she believed that bacteria, protozoa, viruses, fungi and prions could be banished from the body using what amounts to wishful thinking. I wonder why an intelligent person like her would believe such stuff.

One of the nicest people I have ever met enthusiastically believes all manner of nonsense about aliens and crop circles. When given the choice that the two guys who owned up to making the early crop circles for a bit of a drunken lark are telling the simple truth, or that aliens are among us and choosing to "communicate" with us by drawing stupid circles in fields, he unhesitatingly chooses the latter. Why?

Many people still believe in astrology. All claim to any validity has been demolished so many times it gets tiresome. Even Gauguelin, a professor of astrology, utterly disproved the field while attempting to give it scientific credibilty with a huge, careful study. But millions still opt to believe in the unbelievable. How can this be so?

I have many friends who believe in one or another religion. There is not one whit of evidence to support any religion. In fact, all of the thousands of religions clearly contradict the real world. What causes people to believe in something that runs absolutely counter to reality?

I have a number of otherwise intelligent friends who denounce all medical drugs (despite the fact that some actually are reliably useful substances) yet these same people will happily swallow "herbal" preparations based on nothing more than hearsay and containing ingredients they know nothing about. How can people be so skeptical of things that are known, yet be so uncritical of things unknown?

Why do people choose weird fantasy over the real world? Where is the sense in that?

What drives people to believe in myth, superstition, and flights of fancy instead of information right before their eyes?

Comments

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Perhaps people believe there *is* a basis in reality for these things.

Two drunk guys making some crop circles doesn't explain all of them.
What explains em, I don't know, but for me the question is still open.

"Aliens" have been experienced by many people, ufos as well.
Eyewitness reports are enough for the news, and for a court of law, why not for the existence of non human species who are as or more intelligent than humans?

As long as you dismiss it all as "loony" you're unlikely to ever understand.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Two guys making the early crop circles explains those ones. Many other people making further ones explains the rest. We live in a vast sea of humanity. There are countless hooligans, vandals, pranksters out there. Extraordinary claims of aliens require extraordinary evidence.

The idea that a superior alien culture would choose to communicate via circles in fields is just absurd. Turning up at a meeting of the UN, or making a broadcast across the radio spectrum, or leaving a message for SETI -- those would be so much more effective.

I could say I have a purple, flying elephant but you wouldn't believe me unless I produced something more than my say-so. On the other hand if I said I have a bruise on my right knee you'd probably accept it, without needing to actually believe it. And you'd be perfectly happy to discard it if I later said that it was really on my left knee.

I've had people challenge me that I believe in science. They never seem to understand when I tell them that I don't. I'll accept some evidence as probably true, but it is all marked with a question. Anything can be replaced any time if more evidence changes things. I'm not attached to any of it. In fact some of my greatest thrills have come from finding that some of the most basic tenets are wrong and need to be rebuilt differently.

What worries me is that people so desire to believe in weird and crazy things without any more than the say-so of other people who want to believe in those things. Even worse, those outrageous beliefs tend to be held more strongly the less evidence there is for them. What causes this in smart, good, pleasant, otherwise normal people? It really, really puzzles me.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Actually I don't know that aliens are doing the crop circles, what I'm saying is I don't know. It could be humans, in which case we've got some superior crop circle artists out there, it may not be. I don't know.

Extraordinary claims of aliens might just be people's extraordinary experiences. It's really not their fault if the aliens didn't happen to provide them with something they can prove it to their neighbors with.

Think of it this way, can you prove that say your mother said a certain thing to you? It's no less real for you if you can't, your memory still says she did, but you really can't prove details of the relationship.

Turning up at the UN for the others/aliens might not be on their agenda. They might have another agenda that looks very unlike what you imagine might be most effective for them.
Beyond that, it seems to me there is a lot of evidence. Maybe it's not enough to convince you, and that's fine. I don't need you convinced.

What I do feel is that it's extraordinarily unkind to assume those who say they've encountered "aliens" or ufos, ghosts, spirits, gods, energies you don't understand are crazy, loony, naive, deluded, insane, idiotic, ect.

By discounting these people out of hand you shut yourself off from a lot of information. I personally cannot explain to someone so ready to believe that I'm a fool, what I experience. I just don't hate myself that much.

As for people's "desire to believe", well I do understand that. They might have experiences that make it easier for them to believe than you have. Moreover they might simply get more comfort from the thought. People want to feel good, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I wrestled with softening my description for believing without evidence. I genuinely feel that those beliefs are loony and crazy. If people simply said that we should keep an open mind on astrology I'd suggest they look up the hundreds of simple, independent studies of it that have never found anything in it. If they still thought the same thing, I'd start to wonder why. If they believed that astrology was genuine then I don't care how good, smart, pleasant they are (and do I have some smart, lovely friends who believe in astrology) I'm not be ashamed to tell them their beliefs are crazy. I feel I owe it to them. So far most have realised that I still enjoy their company and are not upset by that.

I do discount those things, but I don't close myself off from that information. I continue to follow up on information on all sorts of things that I dismiss as untrue. I've been wrong heaps of times. I love finding out when I'm wrong and fixing it.

I stand against a lot of mainstream science in dismissing the whole "Big Bang" hypothesis. It fails one of the most important tenets of good science: falsifiabilty. If there is no way to disprove something then it isn't science. That sounds counter-intuitive. Karl Popper was probably the first to really explain it. If you can design an experiment where gravity doesn't do what is expected of it then you can potentially disprove the theory of gravity. So far nobody has given any way to falsify the Big Bang. It has a lot of data that lend credence to something big happening, but universe creation from a single point is a bit much to swallow largely on faith. Some of the data pointing to a Big Bang can be explained other ways too. But if someone comes up with some watertight evidence then I will happily go along with it. For me that means the question mark gets much smaller. It never entirely vanishes.

Back to strongly held beliefs in things that have no evidence beyond second- or third-hand anecdotes: I don't really expect much to come of them. I've seen the pattern too often. If aliens landed tomorrow, or clear evidence of a soul was found I'd be very interested. I seriously doubt it will happen, but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

What would constitute evidence for a soul?
See in things such as this, it seems to me they don't lend themselves to normal routes of proving and disproving.

Truth is I'm never entirely comfortable with the word "belief" as it applies to me.
I do tend to think certain things are true, but belief, I don't know, that seems to imply a whole dedication to a concept. Even if I act as if some things are true, I could certainly revise my view of reality tomorrow.
Even so, I think I have a soul. I wonder if you think that thinking is loony or if I'm loony for thinking it. Or both perhaps.

When I say you could be closing yourself off from information, I'm not saying your not open to it, what I'm saying is with your belief that certain beliefs are loony, few people would want to share with you information about their own knowledge of such things, knowing how you would judge them.
I wouldn't. In fact I can't begin to figure how I would explain why some things make sense to me, seem true to me. Without something you could put under a microscope I doubt you'd hear anything but more loonyness.
Truth is that kinda makes me sad.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

What would constitute evidence for a soul?

Good question. This is one of those falsifiability problems. The concept of a soul is usually framed in such a way that it can't be proved or disproved. But it is pretty easy to whittle away the likelihood of its existence to pretty-much zero by reframing the question. Is the soul the conscious "me" that observes the world and makes moral judgements and feels happy or sad. If that is the case then the soul definitely dies when my body does. I can go into more detail on this if you wish.

Yes. I agree with you about the word "belief". The language is part of the problem. We don't really have properly agreed upon words to distinguish between accepting something with reservations or basing your entire outlook upon something.

Another part of the problem is that people sometimes think that when I'm criticising their beliefs that I'm criticising them. I have a lot of friends with nutty beliefs, but I count myself very lucky to have them as friends. I don't think they are crazy. I think their beliefs are. It is difficult to distinguish between the two in casual conversation, but a few minutes chatting usually shows people how I really feel.

There is also a big difference between someone not discounting UFOs, and someone who passionately believes in a worldwide conspiracy to keep evidence of aliens hushed up. There is no evidence for either stance. The big difference is in intensity to believe without evidence and passionate commitment to dismiss any opposing evidence.

A person who reserves judgement in the case of UFOs, but says that considering the number of sightings there probably is something in it we should look at it more is, in my opinion, simply mistaken. That's OK. We all make mistakes. I'd suggest they look more at all the work that has been done by unbiased researchers.

A person who enthusiastically believes in UFOs and dismisses any opposing evidence with fantastical conspiracies is holding desperately to a crazy belief. They may be completely sane, well balanced, and normal (I'm thinking of one of the nicest guys I know here) but that doesn't change the fact that their belief is crazy.

I've considered adopting a less confrontational description of such beliefs, but there seems to be mounting evidence that tolerance of loopy thinking makes it worse. So I try to call it what it is.

It is risky because people can become so attached to their beliefs they can't see where their self stops and the belief starts and they get offended. I try to avoid that, but I won't say that something that is clearly wrong is OK... ummm... unless other evidence comes to hand to show me that I'm handling it wrongly... which I may be, of course... :)

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

"I don't think they are crazy. I think their beliefs are."
Well okey, that helps me feel a bit better.
Personally I think you're very nice, and while I really don't agree with you in your assessment and conclusion round some subjects, I don't think you're crazy or dumb, I think you're understanding these things to the best of your ability from your particular perspective.
I'm guessing our experiences may be very very different.
And our perspectives too.
See I think it's valid to consider the stories that humanity has told since we've been telling stories. Considering doesn't mean they're all true of course but I'm just not okay with discounting them all either. Rather I hope to learn from them.
And beyond that I have my own experiences that lend to me thinking certain things are likely. And the experiences and stories of those who I've been very close to as well. I consider those.

I figure I'll know for sure if I have a soul when I die. In the meantime I feel that I do, and I won't deny myself a soul just cause I can't be certain yet.

"It is risky because people can become so attached to their beliefs they can't see where their self stops and the belief starts and they get offended. I try to avoid that, but I won't say that something that is clearly wrong is OK... ummm... unless other evidence comes to hand to show me that I'm handling it wrongly... which I may be, of course... :)"

Yah, I know, of course we are, we're people, we get attached to things.
I understand that you're trying to be honest with yourself. And that's cool by me. :)

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

ps, You know I'm not sure that I see the soul the way you describe it. Those seem to me to be functions of the body.
Even so I can't quite explain how I see it. Sorry bout that. :)
But if you want, you can explain to me *when you're up to it and feel like it* why the soul as you describe it can be disproved. I'd like to hear it if and when you feel like explaining.

Take care you. :)

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

People want to feel good, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I forgot to answer that point. It really get to the heart of the matter. I do think feeling good can be a big mistake if done some ways.

Here, let me illustrate with a few examples:

If you had been injured and wanted some aspirin to ease the pain it could kill you be preventing your blood clotting -- you bleed to death... in comfort.

Some horrid researchers have done experiments on rats where they implant electrodes into the pleasure region of rats' brains and let them self-stimulate. The rats happily starve to death.

Goebbles, Hitler's propaganda minister said that you could make people believe anything by repeating it often enough. We all know how harmlessly that worked out.

I'm sure you can come up with many more.

Ignoring reality by believing something simply to feel good is a dangerous thing to do.

Even "harmless" things like belief in UFOs can have dangerous run-on effects. It was the planetary scientists like Carl Sagan who went on to start SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) who became concerned about the greenhouse effect and global warming of our Earth. I've heard UFO-conspiracist friends discount NASA as covering up aliens. Discarding what those scientists' research endangers the whole planet.

The apparently harmless belief in an eternal soul was the rationale for the Inquisition torturing people to death in the Dark Ages. The idea was that our time here is fleeting compared to an eternity in heaven or hell, thus a confession elicited by any means helps the soul avoid torture for infinity. However there is plenty of concrete evidence to show that the soul does not exist. Those people died in harrowing pain for nothing but a fervently held mistake.

Generally speaking I'm all for people feeling good and being happy. It is my main motivator in life. But I understand that it is dangerous to feel good for the wrong reasons. Understanding what are the wrong reasons is the hard part and probably the subject of an even longer, more waffly post. (Sorry about rattling on so much.)
:)

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Ok, what I was saying was that there's nothing wrong with people *wanting* to feel good.
I didn't comment on how they go about trying to feel good.

"However there is plenty of concrete evidence to show that the soul does not exist. "
Where would that be?
So far I haven't seen anything convincing myself.

"Those people died in harrowing pain for nothing but a fervently held mistake."
Seems to me they died in pain cause some sadistic persons did that to em. It doesn't take believing in a soul to rationalize something vicious. The mind is infinitely creative, one could just as easily say because there is no soul that it doesn't matter one way or the other what they do.
I tend to think I have a soul and that others do too but I don't think it's okay to hurt people cause of it.

Certainly if holding certain beliefs is causing suffering I think that might be a good indicator that the belief ought to be examined. I'm not gonna argue with you there.

I know people have rationalized all kinds of unkindnesses with one belief after another.
The whole "Manifest Destiny" thing in the US was the rationalization for genocide of the native population. And that belief was just made up on the spot. Very handy made to order new belief.
Its what humans do. Not all the time but a lot of the time.

Some beliefs come about by experience though. No, not by scientific testing or out of a desire to rationalize some lack of compassion, but by experience. Certainly people will interpret their experiences in whatever way makes the most sense for them.

It may be you believe that some people are just experiencing hallucinations, delusions, psychosis, or that they're just compulsive liars.
I certainly won't blame people if they believe their own experiences though.

I don't mind you rattling on.
I mind people thinking I'm dumb or loony.
That's my problem though I guess. I'll have to process that.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I definitely don't think you are dumb or loony. I have a lot of respect for you. Over the period I've chatted with you on LJ you've consistently shown youself to be compassionate and thoughtful. I don't really know what your beliefs are or how strongly you hold them.

I have little energy these days because of the medication, so my postings to LJ have dropped off and I'm always too tired to read friends' LJs anymore. I should not really post when I become exhausted because I start to make stupid mistakes and sound brusque, even rude, and I hate the thought of that. My posting a little while ago was full of typos so I'm clearly getting exhausted. I should really log off and continue later. I hope I haven't unintentionally offended you. I'm a dope if I have. Sorry.

More later when I can think more clearly and stand up without falling over. :)

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

"I definitely don't think you are dumb or loony. I have a lot of respect for you. Over the period I've chatted with you on LJ you've consistently shown youself to be compassionate and thoughtful. I don't really know what your beliefs are or how strongly you hold them."

Thank you. :)
Honestly it's rather hard to explain what I think is likely to be true, cause there's no one template (that I'm aware of) that completely explains. Which, well, I like it that way. I'm an exploring being, not a decided being. But it's true I could draw language from a variety of traditions to explain. But generally I'll share my understandings with people I'm close to if they want to hear it but otherwise I don't. I'm not out to proselytize. I just want people to be as happy as they know how to be and I really don't think my understandings are necessary for them to do that.

Yes, please do take care of yourself. No need to be falling over to provide me with more words.
I'm really not offended, you've made your understanding clearer to me and that helps.
Presently I've another friend who is speaking rather offensively about his desire to wipe organized religion off the face of the earth. That, that kinda offends me. So the subject is just a tad sensitive right now, but that's certainly not your fault.
I've learned a lot from the various traditions that are carried within various religions and I want to honor peoples right to choose what they do as regards their religion, beliefs, understandings, philosophy. The idea of some of us deciding for others of us what we have a right to believe, that's an ugly thought in my opinion. Certainly it's where some religions and philosophy have begun to harm others. I'm not okay with that inside or out of religions.

Anyhoo, yes, do take care of yourself. Please no falling over on my account. :)