Creationism to be taught in Queensland schools

[miriam_e]

Oh, for crud's sake! Haven't we learned anything?

Read more here.

They sure are sneaky, these creationists... and persistent! They have learned that a frontal assault doesn't work so they're sneaking in the side door by saying that it will be taught as a historical controversy. It sounds so gentle and reasonable until you realise that there really is no controversy except in the warped minds of the creationists themselves.

Let's not be deceived. We all know what it will be used for. It will be a wedge to promote a myth. Why aren't they wanting us to teach the controversy surrounding the gods of ancient Greece and Rome? How about the Norse gods? Perhaps we should be teaching about Hindu creation myths. Or why one might want to choose Buddhism rather than Christianity. Or Zoroastrianism. Or any of the more than 1,000 major religions. No? I wonder why not. It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they see this as a propaganda opportunity, could it? They're not really concerned with rationality. They just want somehow to legitimise their insane mythos by having it taught in school, so that they can expand its coverage bit by bit. But school is where we are supposed to become more knowledgeable, not more stupid.

What the hell are the education authorities using for brains!?!

Comments

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

We had something like this happen in Texas recently where the history books were significantly messed with on a variety of subjects.
I'm not sure where the whole creation/evolution thing stands across the US, I think in different states it's different.

It's annoying and all but really I think most of us think the sex education thing is a more important issue probably because it's a more threatening one. Diseases and babies are passed and made pretty damn quickly. They've been pushing for "abstinence only" sex education forever. Obviously that's not sex education. Hell it's not even education, much less sex education.

I remember I had a science class in 6th grade, that would be early 80's I guess and the teacher covered the origin of the universe topic *very* briefly.
It went sorta like "some people think that the universe originated in the Big Bang, others think "God" created it and some people think both happened. "
And that was about it.
I've no idea what they're teaching now.

You know most of the time I don't think this argument from the "creationists" side has anything at all to do with logic or even belief. I think it's more that they want to win and want to be "right".
They're pushing their view because it's *their* view. I don't think it even matters to them if it's logical or true or that they even truly believe it.
And if I remembered that I'd probably get less pissed at my mother, maybe.
She's an unusually intelligent woman who watches Fox news and parrots the shit they say. I know it hardly seems both things can be true. It's all about belonging though, belonging to her tribe, it's all us and them.
:(
It's like fighting a fight to win not because it even needs fighting, but just to try and win.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

All good points. I hadn't really considered that it may be largely about winning, and hang the consequences.

The whole abstinence thing really makes me shudder. The statistics on that are so damn clear I'm astounded more people don't take notice. In countries where there is real sex education and there is no brow-beating and moral judgements on condoms and other contraceptives there is a dramatic decline in teen pregancies, teen abortions, unwanted babies sent to orphanages, sexually transmitted disease, and less drop out to take care of unexpected new families.

The tribe thing you mention is such a problem. I think that is something churches feed on so effectively. Unfortunately Fox seem to have learned that trick too.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

The tribe thing is a problem everywhere, really no matter what tribe one inhabits. There may be a difference as to degree but it's really a human problem.
I've seen people that have really solid logical views be utterly vicious in expressing them and vicious in expressing their hatred of those that don't hold the same views. I can't see how that helps. I know it's frustrating but that behaivor doesn't help bring around others to understanding.

You're right, a lot of churches do. The ones that don't get far less press but they do exist.

Fox... yah, that's almost all they do. It's amazing to me that anyone uses them for an information source. Their crazy crap does make for great comedy though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlOBa6qa3o

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

True. I was listening to the Skeptics podcast, but had to stop because even though I am in agreement with what they were saying I think they were often far too snide in their dismissals. I have a lot of religious friends and even though I detest their religions I still like the people. But I understand where the Skeptics are coming from, and from time to time I have to catch myself when I stoop that low too. I've had the good luck to be caught by you recently when doing it. (Caught, as in saved while falling.)

It is hard to shake off the tribal us-vs-them stuff.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

:)
I think the tribal us/them thing is part of our wiring really. It's something I'm hoping we'll outgrow.

Hey, did you ever finish that last piece of fiction writing you were doing?
I wanted to read it.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I hope we outgrow it. There are some nice indications that some of us are developing a genuine feeling of being citizens of the Earth.

Now there's a coincidence. I was just a moment ago asked the same thing by a Mexican friend, except that she was wondering about the previous one -- last year's NaNo.

Trouble is I've started writing a non-fiction book. I intend to get back and finish all this unfinished crap... eventually. I figure if I write out the outline and begin the thing then I'll have something to do when my ideas all evaporate. :)

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Yes there are hopeful indications. :)

What are you writing now?

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I was carefully considering whether to answer this properly because I'm such a procrastinator. I'm trying to think up strategies to help me complete things. I was wondering if placing expectations on myself bleeds all the enjoyment out of doing stuff. Not sure. I am constantly busy. Most of the time it is doing fairly difficult and time-consuming tasks that I never bother to mention to anybody. But I do them just because I'm obsessively filling a need. For example I recently wrote a nice GUI (graphical user interface) that lets me simply and easily transfer information into and out of my little Palm computer. When I was using MSWindows I could use a GUI to do some of that, but under Linux nothing like it seems to exist, so I wrote it. My interface sits atop a suite of command-line programs that can do far more than the MSWindows interface ever could, but I had to read the manual every time I wanted to use them. Now with my GUI it is easy and self-explanatory. This is the first I've mentioned it to anybody. There is no money in it. It is just stuff I compulsively do. I'd love to use that power for writing.

It is a non-fiction book. :) And I'll make it available online for free. Hopefully I'll also get it published as a dead-tree book too... if I finish. :/

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

:)
"I was wondering if placing expectations on myself bleeds all the enjoyment out of doing stuff. Not sure. "
I've wondered this myself. It's hard to know.
Some things, doing them really seems to come easy. I don't know why this is.
Other things, I need to push myself toward them, but once I'm doing them I seem content enough. Sometimes no pushing works though. *shrug*.
Can't say I really understand it myself.
I do think it may help to sorta get in the groove with an activity, over time building up a practice, so it starts to feel habitual. This can be done a bit at a time, and increased over time.
I'm trying to do this with my dance practice.

Anyhoo, I do find your writing, fiction or non, of interest.
Good luck to you with it. :)

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the compliment. :)
I seem to have difficult forming habits. I do everything differently all the time, almost nothing runs on autopilot, and am constantly distracted by other things. No day is even remotely like another. Perhaps if there was more order in my life I might get more done... or perhaps it is why I have learned so much. I've tried to develop writing habits and I know it definitely works for some other people because I've heard them sing its praises, but I am damned if I can work out how to.

Example: Yesterday I was thinking that I must get stuck into working more steadily writing this book, but last night, about midnight, a wonderful story idea flashed into my head. I got out of bed and wrote it down, then went back to sleep. Today the damn idea won't let me alone and I haven't got any work done. :( Gah!

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

:)
I understand.
Can't say I have an easy time of making habits but there are some things I'm pretty determined to make habits (because if I don't it'll largely be a waste of my time to do it at all) so, slowly I'm beginning to create grooves in my life for these things.
I think of it as kind of creating a muscle memory so that if I do certain things often enough it will begin to feel natural. It's unlikely to feel natural for a while but in time it can.

I do have a lot of faith in following natural impulses though. Our curiosity and desires given rein can be very fruitful.

[belegdel.livejournal.com]

It is hard to shake off the tribal us-vs-them stuff.

I can't help thinking the internet is partly responsible for the resurgence in tribal thinking. By enabling like-minded people to essentailly gather and support each other, its essentially removed physical restrictions against localised groups forming large, effective organisations.

Kind of a double-edged sword because it's great for the lone outsider needing support.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of it like that. Good point.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

And yah, the sex education thing is absolutely clear.
What people who push for abstinence only education seem to have a problem with is that people might actually have sex without terrible consequences. They seem to think teenagers will be fucking in the street or something.
Personally I think that has a lot to do with shame around sex (which is of course taught), and fear of women being empowered.

I have a hard time believing they actually think abstinence only education will work but I guess if they had it and someone gets pregnant they feel they can then shame that person and I guess that's suppossed to be some kinda plus. God knows it would be a horrible world if we couldn't point the finger and say "whore!", "slut!" and have those words still mean something.

I was raised being told I wasn't suppossed to have sex till I got married. Sex of *any* kind.
Frankly I feel that's pretty abusive. Shaming a person for wanting what they can't help wanting, it's wrong, and damaging.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of it as abuse, but of course you're right. It lays a trap that instinct and often peer pressure lure them into, then when the trap is sprung they are vilified. As if there was ever any doubt that it would catch most kids. Sad.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

What I know is that it was incredibly painful. I'm sure it's a large part of why the suicide rate is so high among homosexual teens.
I'm sure if it's abuse it's part of an abuse cycle, meaning that the abuse was done to the ones that end up abusing their own children.
My father was able to give much more acceptance than he was taught, my mother not so much, although it's hard to tell exactly considering how she's been pretty closed mouthed as regards her childhood.

It is sad but I do see change and that makes me happy. :)

re sex education

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Good news! This made me happy: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127514185&sc=fb&cc=fp

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Oh. I shouold have mentioned that I found out why creationists have been targetting Texas so strongly lately. It is that it is the biggest market for school books. Publishers can't afford to change the books for different states, so they make Texas their baseline for all USA. The creationists have twigged to the fact that getting Texas delivers them the whole of USA by default. Utter monsters.

[greylock.livejournal.com]

Not just creationists.
Conservatives.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0519/Texas-textbook-war-Slavery-or-Atlantic-triangular-trade

Yes, they want to have mentions of slavery replaced with the phrase "Atlantic triangular trade".

Because... I haven't found an answer to that yet.

ARG!

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

How very Orwellian. :(

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Oh. My. God! Are these people insane? [head-desk]

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

Texas is a bit easier in general for that sorta crap. It's more "conservative". Except for the capital of the state of course, Austin.

ps.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

All those other topics you suggest, that would have made for a more interesting school year for sure. Hindu Creation Myths! The Gods of Ancient Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia! Buddhism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Much More!
Wow just learning all those things thoroughly could have taken years and years.

Re: ps.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Yes. I was lucky that I learned some of that when I was a kid even though it wasn't part of the curriculum. Mostly it was that I was a voracious reader, but also I was lucky that I had a few teachers who were overdue for retirement and they would lose themselves in waffling on about ancient history. Most of the kids thought this was a hoot and thought they were avoiding learning. I and a few of the other lucky kids absorbed these stories of ancient mythologies. I wish there had been more on those... just like I wish there had been more on actual science instead of boring theoretical "laws" of science.

Re: ps.

[dorjejaguar.livejournal.com]

I learned just a tiny bit in school (and felt lucky) and much more on my own. The history of belief is such an enormous part of the human story. Seems important to me.
Science, I admit I got next to nothing of. I didn't seek it so much, I admit, even in college, I figure cause it reminded me of math. And I have real issues with math.
I do remember a logic class in college and wondering, jeez, why the hell hadn't they been teaching us this when we were children? In the same way actual science would have been helpful too. It would teach how to investigate, how to find out things. Seem childrens' natural curiosity would grab right on to that.

[greylock.livejournal.com]

The article doesn't seem as bad as I feared, which is nice.

Why aren't they wanting us to teach the controversy surrounding the gods of ancient Greece and Rome?

Unless stuff has happened since I was in school:
There is no controversy.
They do teach about the Classical Gods.

Perhaps we should be teaching about Hindu creation myths.
Perhaps. But Christianity is the dominant religion, and knowing about its creation myths is important considering the themes are everywhere.

That said, teaching it depends on the context. Teaching as myth is fine, but ID is just silly.

They just want somehow to legitimise their insane mythos by having it taught in school, so that they can expand its coverage bit by bit.

I'd have thought you were old enough to have suffered through religious ed in state schooling. I know I did. Didn't hurt me none.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

The article doesn't seem so bad because precisely because they have learned that a frontal attack doesn't work anymore. They're using stealth now, which is, if anything more worrying.

There is actually no controversy about evolution vs creationism either... except in the minds of the creationists. Everybody else is quite satisfied that evolution has been proven enough times, and is accepted for what it is... except for the blasted creationists, still living in the stone age and wanting to drag everybody else back there with them.

It isn't about the context. It is that they will use it as a lever for legitimacy. I have few problems with them teaching their silly myths within religion classes or brainwashing sunday school, but using history classes as a platform for pushing their creationism vs evolution puke is just wrong.

I know many kids who it hurt. They swallowed the propaganda, believing the crap that was dished out. I bet you didn't escape entirely unharmed either. If someone tells you that feudalism is a good system because common people are not supposed to be able to read and write, they are supposed to work for their masters, you would probably feel compelled to correct them. It is unlikely that you would use the same manner with someone who told you that we should all live by the bible and worship their god. People have been damaged by routine religious instruction to not confront religious lies and stupidity for what it is. We have learned that we should simply let it slide. And how many kids had nightmares about the whole Hell deal? Shame at being subject to pleasures of the flesh? Damage? You betcha.

creationism

[jenna2.livejournal.com]

Apparently not.
I think they do teach mythology some where in high school at least I sort of remember something about norse mythology
G

Re: creationism

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I seem to recall some Norse mythology from that time in my life too... though I don't know if it was from my general reading, or being taught in school, or from comic books. :) Of the three I think it was most likely my general reading. I used to get a brilliant magazine each week that I loved called "Finding Out". It was wonderful -- full of science, history, mythology, fiction, and technology. I was lucky the way my parents tolerated (perhaps even encouraged) me getting so many of those kinds of magazines. "How It Works" was another -- full of astonishing information about the internal intricacies of machines, chemical and industrial processes, and many technologies. Another was "Animal Life" -- an encyclopedic series full of sumptuous photos of almost every kind of animal on Earth. Yet another was "World of Wildlife", and encyclopedia of a different kind, concentrating on all the ecologies instead of the animals themselves. Some magazines I still get, like "New Scientist" and "Scientific American". Some died, like the wonderful British "Science Journal" -- a very sad loss. I still have all of these. I'm a packrat. :)