the "crime" of trusting islamic men

[miriam_e]

Go to Amnesty International's action list, scroll down to "The Girl from al-Qatif" and take the link to embarrass the Saudi government into at least trying to fix their medieval culture.

A 19-year-old woman, known only as "The Girl from al-Qatif," has been sentenced to 200 lashes and a 6-month prison term for being alone in private with a member of the opposite sex who was not an immediate family member. Call on the Saudi authorities to repeal this sentence of flogging.

Why is it that a girl has to cover herself from head to toe and heavily circumscribe her every action, living in constant fear of inflaming the desire of the men around her, while a woman can stroll down the main street of Brisbane wearing nothing but a skimpy bikini and expect to come to no harm? Either men in the West are paragons of virtue, or men in islamic society have become so deeply corrupted by their absolute power over women that it has turned them into vile creatures.

What men in islamic (and fundamentalist christian and hindu) society don't realise is that their control and power over women debases and corrupts them. Yes, the women lose out badly, being abused and dehumanised, but the men lose too; they become monsters and lose the chance to a great future accompanied by women as equals.

Comments

[peaseblossom03.livejournal.com]

Not only was she sentenced to such a barbaric punishment; she was gang-raped prior to her arrest. It's terrible enough that she had to suffer such a horrible ordeal; but to be punished in such a way on top of it is nothing short of atrocious.

[damien-wise.livejournal.com]

This case disgusts me. :(
Not only was she punished for being the victim of the crime (WTF?!), but I hear that when she appealed the sentence they doubled the number of lashes. Good message to send-out to other people, huh?

[peaseblossom03.livejournal.com]

On CNN, it was reported that her lawyer was disbarred for daring to appeal.

[greylock.livejournal.com]

I think this is extremely horrible and all... as was the Teddy bear teacher...

But it is their culture (the dressing and stuff). Is it really for us to judge their social dynamics?

while a woman can stroll down the main street of Brisbane wearing nothing but a skimpy bikini and expect to come to no harm?

Do women do that in Brisbane while I'm not around? If she does, I'm sure she's going to get her fair share of suggestive comments, or will be "violated with the eyes".

I'm not defending anything, but I've heard enough over the years to understand that not only do the women like their place in Islamic society (on the whole, not each and every individual), but they accept it.

It's not for us to impose our values (such as they are in this Girls Gone Wild culture - which is an entire post of its own). Women and men in Islamic society are equal, but different. Who is to say that isn't the better way forward than what we have in the West?

*shrug*

[peaseblossom03.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

It is one thing for women to believe in and willingly agree to keeping their hair covered in public, and not making any physical contact with a male that is not a husband or relative, because doing otherwise would "disappoint God" (words from a Muslim woman I went to school with). It is another to corrupt the Koran to justify punishing (brutally, I'll add) the victim of a crime against humanity.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Actually, whilst I agree with most of that, I have to point out that I don't think they were corrupting the koran. The koran was corrupting them. Read it. It is a truly mad document. It is even more nuts than the scary old testament of the bible or anything that that horrid loony Paul of Tarsis wrote in the new testament.

[sharpblonde.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll agree that if someone is skimpily dressed, certainly to the point of wearing a bikini down the street a certain amount of comments and leers can be expected, but comments and leers are a far cry from actual sexual assault and rape. (That said I wouldn be careful about where and when I walked around in anything at all skimpy, but that is just good sense.)

I'm not saying that you agree with it, but what gives someone the right to assault someone? I believe in self defense and defending loved ones, the weak or the unfairly outnumbered when possible, but really, that's the only time I can condone physically hurting someone.

I have no problem with someone dressing a certain way because of their religion, as long as they have some sort of reasonable choice about it. I have no problem with the restrictions on women not being allowed to see men outside her family alone, but only if those restrictions are self imposed or done out of respect for family and/or religion. I guess it comes down to freedom of belief and freedom of choice. Perhaps I am a product of my Western upbringing, but I believe these are essential rights that should apply to everyone.

On an added note, I have to say, as a woman, and more as a relatively outspoken queer woman, most of the middle east scares the crap out of me.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Yes, you are a product of your Western upbringing, but that doesn't automatically validate or invalidate your views. I get really worried about the insidious insertion of cultural relativism into conversations these days. The most worrying aspect is that it is often done by the smartest and most aware. The commenter greylock above is a very smart and sensitive guy.

The problem is that we have no difficulty with criticising exactly the same aspects of our own culture, but we are encouraged to somehow consider other cultures off-limits. It comes from a reaction to the horrors perpetrated by cultural imperialism, but we don't have to swing one way or the other. We can hold to the middle road and simply consider intrinsic human rights. It all springs from treat others the way you'd have them treat you. On that basis you can be quite legitimately fearful of islamic and christian and hindu and confucian culture. They are all based upon insane premises and there is little to limit them other than people who understand the simple basis of human rights and who speak up. If we don't speak up then the insanity prevails... there and here.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Social relativism doesn't really make sense. It is absolutely for everyone to judge when injustices occur. I'm not speaking from the point of view of a Westerner when I talk about islamic society being stunted and insane. From any detached perspective where you consider human rights as a basis for society then islamic society is totally screwed. When I say human rights, I mean the utter basics: do to others how you'd have them do to you.

Western society still has a lot of growing up to do too. There is still no equal pay for equal work, and if you have the unfortunate accident of having poor parents then your potential is largely discarded. If you don't look pretty then ditto. If you have an unusual sexual orientation then, again, ditto. The less pale is your skin then, ditto.

Women walk around scantily clad all the time here on the Sunshine Coast. From what I've seen few are leered at, I've never heard lewd comments made to them.

Women in islamic society are crushed. They tend to accept it because there is no other option and slaves often grow to love their chains, but the chains and slavery are still wrong. In islamic society women and girls' births are not even recorded and their deaths (and murders) likewise. They are not equal to men in any respect at all. They have literally one third the rights -- the koran explicitly states that, and it is enforced by law.

"Girls Gone Wild culture" is a strange term to use when women are still routinely advised not to go certain places because they expose themselves to harm from men -- that is all women have to be victimised and circumscribe their actions because men can take responsibility for their actions.

This is hardly a "Girls Gone Wild culture". Out of the fortune 500 companies I think about half a dozen have women in top executive positions. Interestingly those ones are at the top of the fortune 500. Including women is by far the better way forward by any measure you want to use. Have you ever wondered why islamic society is so impoverished when they have such vast riches? Could it be that they waste 50% of their greatest resources: human minds. What society can do more than limp along under those circumstances?

It is absolutely for all of us to judge when people commit injustices against others, here in the West and in islamic society, hindu society, or anywhere. If we don't then we cop out of the future. All it requires for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.

[belegdel.livejournal.com]

From what I've seen few are leered at

Then I'd suggest the onlookers have simply gotten more circumspect. Anecdotal evidence abounds that "leering" is practically an organised sport on the Gold and Sunshine coasts.

"Girls Gone Wild culture"

I actually took Greylock's reference more in terms of our supposedly more liberated culture (with respect to fememine issues) still being rife with objectification, exploitation and denegration. Along the lines of "how about we sort ourselves out before we start trying to sort others out".

because men can't take responsibility for their actions.

I take exception to that generalisation. Some people can't take responsibility for their actions.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

The Sunshine Coast seems to be a pretty civilised place. I'm sure leering still happens. I don't see a lot wrong with that. Lewd comments made to women are another thing though and I haven't heard of women here who've had a problem with that (though I'm sure it occurs from time to time too). But the point I'm making really is that women of many different age groups feel perfectly comfortable walking around exposing large amounts of flesh here. I think that's pretty good evidence that men in islamic culture have become deeply corrupted by their absolute power over women. A while back I read an amazing article by a woman who grew up in moslem culture and ended up in the Netherlands. She was terrified at being in the midst of a depraved Western culture. It was only after some of her friends pointed out the reality -- that women are able to walk around in safety, compared with the great danger to them in her home culture -- that she realised how topsy-turvy are islamic morals.

I still don't get the Girls Gone Wild reference.
I absolutely think we should continue to improve our own culture, but if we have to wait till we achieve perfection before we help people anywhere else then... well, that would hardly be perfection would it? We need to be generous and helpful to others as well as fixing our internal problems. It isn't just one OR the other.

Yes, you're right. I should have said "some". My bad. I think the "men" still stands though, because I don't remember the last time I heard of a woman being raped or assaulted by another woman. Yes, I'm sure it happens, but it is sufficiently rare that "men" is a reasonable word to use in addressing women's major concerns. I should mention that in my experience, the vast majority of Western men are responsible and mature.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Oops...
because men can take responsibility for their actions
I meant:
because men don't take responsibility for their actions

[beeny89.livejournal.com]

ive read up to chapter 15 of your story.
well ive gotten through half of chapter 15.
i will read more soon tho.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

Cool :) No hurry. I'm still working on chapter 17, and there will be at least one more after that.

Thanks for reading. I'm grateful.

I sent my emails.

[(Anonymous)]

Does not mean much will happen - though I like the idea of embarrassing uncivilised governments.

(Of course it is much harder to hold the moral high ground when the Government of our close ally the United States thinks waterboarding and "extraordinary rendition" are somehow acceptable.)

Regards,
MFG.

Re: I sent my emails.

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

The weird thing about such horrid governments is that they seem to place much greater value upon appearance than on reality. Embarrassing them is a very good way to effect change, even though that change might be bandaid and local, it is a beginning, and can inspire people on the ground in those countries to make more lasting changes.

We don't have to look far for revolting governments. Our own government changed the law to allow 'accidental' death of a person being tortured by our own police. That is, if someone you know is tortured to death by Australian police then the police are immune and there is nothing you can do about it. Why the hell is such a thing possible in a supposedly enlightened culture like Australia?

I have a theory on that. Even though hardly anybody dies, worldwide, due to terrorists, politicians are at the focus of terrorist threats. Having the power to use extraordinary measures to protect their worthless asses they trade away everybody else's freedoms in order to do so. Also the military and security forces make such obscene amounts of money from creating fear in politicians' minds. (World weapons budget is about $900,000,000,000,000... half of which is the US weapons budget.)

The US State Department overestimates (by their own admission) that about 600 people per year are killed from terrorism.
Cars kill 1,200,000.
AIDS kills more than 3,000,000.
Smoking kills about 5,000,000.
Starvation kills more than 16,000,000.

World poverty (and probably terrorism) could be eliminated by diverting the US arms budget for less than one hour each year. Now that is obscene.

[clubhopper15.livejournal.com]

Hey! When u updating next, I am dying of suspense!

[miriam-e.livejournal.com]

:) Soon.
I managed to stave off all my responsibilities during November, but now it's December everything has come back with a vengeance. :)

Chapter 17 is partly written, and there'll probably be one more chapter after that (maybe two). One advantage of taking it slow is that I've been adding to, and changing some of my original ideas, so hopefully the result will be better than if I'd rushed past the finish gate before the end of November.