![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gender difference
I've been trying to distract myself while waiting for the phone to ring with news of Mali.
I got to thinking about claims of difference between the minds of women and men. In the past I've witnessed hot arguments on the subject, with both sides generally insisting more or less the same thing -- that men and women think and feel differently. I'd always been uncomfortable with such arguments as nobody ever gives any evidence; they argue entirely from their own experience, with one saying to the other that "You can never know what it feels to be [insert male or female here] because you are not." It was always a confounding statement to make, because they're right, nobody can know what maleness or femaleness feels like if they are not of that gender. However I always found it unsettling because I never felt a part of my gender, so I'd always felt a little mystified at what they meant.
It suddenly hit me today that the entire argument springs from a delusion. When people assume that what they feel is shared by others of their gender, they are making an unfounded assumption. They say people of their own gender feel a particular way, and that those of the other gender don't, but how can they possibly know if either of those statements is true? Clearly they can't. Neither sex has access to telepathy. Nobody knows what another human being feels like, let alone an entire gender of humans. And the simple fact that I stand alone, feeling not particularly female or male would tend to disprove it anyway. If I feel like this, how many others do?
I've met plenty of strong, aggressive, gadget-oriented women, and gentle, touchy-feely males. It looks to me that there is far more overlap between the sexes than there are distinguishing features, meaning that many, many people (most?) are not able to be easily fitted into any simplified box of shared experience or mental traits.
Despite it being one of those commonly accepted "self-evident truths", it seems it is really just another example of sexism.
I got to thinking about claims of difference between the minds of women and men. In the past I've witnessed hot arguments on the subject, with both sides generally insisting more or less the same thing -- that men and women think and feel differently. I'd always been uncomfortable with such arguments as nobody ever gives any evidence; they argue entirely from their own experience, with one saying to the other that "You can never know what it feels to be [insert male or female here] because you are not." It was always a confounding statement to make, because they're right, nobody can know what maleness or femaleness feels like if they are not of that gender. However I always found it unsettling because I never felt a part of my gender, so I'd always felt a little mystified at what they meant.
It suddenly hit me today that the entire argument springs from a delusion. When people assume that what they feel is shared by others of their gender, they are making an unfounded assumption. They say people of their own gender feel a particular way, and that those of the other gender don't, but how can they possibly know if either of those statements is true? Clearly they can't. Neither sex has access to telepathy. Nobody knows what another human being feels like, let alone an entire gender of humans. And the simple fact that I stand alone, feeling not particularly female or male would tend to disprove it anyway. If I feel like this, how many others do?
I've met plenty of strong, aggressive, gadget-oriented women, and gentle, touchy-feely males. It looks to me that there is far more overlap between the sexes than there are distinguishing features, meaning that many, many people (most?) are not able to be easily fitted into any simplified box of shared experience or mental traits.
Despite it being one of those commonly accepted "self-evident truths", it seems it is really just another example of sexism.
no subject
I was just pondering styles of shopping this morning.
There's certainly more masculine (quick, surgical strike shopping) and feminine (meandering, shopping-as-event) ways of doing things, and I'm not 100% sure they aren't instinctive rather than learned behaviours.
no subject
There may well be some generalised tendencies in things like spacial perception or verbal skills, but I think such vague things only really show up when doing statistical surveys of large numbers of people and are worse than useless for predicting the capabilities of any individual. I say "worse than useless" because not only is it ineffective in one-to-one dealings, but it misleads us into incorrectly typecasting people, leading to sexism.
no subject
I don't know that seeing difference is the same as sexism.
"When people assume that what they feel is shared by others of their gender, they are making an unfounded assumption."
I do agree with that. Also imagining that only one sex feels certain things is pretty crazy but it goes on all the time to the detriment of all sexes. I'd rather it not be that way, I'd rather I not make such assumptions, I try to root them out if and when I find them.
This isn't exactly on line with what we're talking about but the subject reminded me and I wonder what you might think of this: http://www.ted.com/talks/eve_ensler_embrace_your_inner_girl.html
no subject
The problem is that most people don't "get" statistics. If you have two groups that have broad skill differences, but a big overlap then when looking at the entire population you can say that there are differences, but selecting any two individuals, one from each of the two categories, you can say virtually nothing about their relative skills. The overlap means that a girl could easily have been chosen with greater or less of that quality than a boy. There are too many cultural, environmental, social, and educational forces involved to be able to make quick, easy categories.
Assumptions are so hard to get rid of. By their very nature they are where we start our thinking. I try to rid myself of them too, and I think I'm more successful than most people, but I know it's a task I'll never complete.
Thanks for the pointer to the TED-talk. I'll eagerly watch that when Jules and her husband, Richard, leave in a few weeks. I'm trying to use less internet while they're here so I don't rudely use it all up. :)
no subject
Least I think that's how it can work if I'm understanding that correctly.
I think for me I recognize something more like masculine, feminine and androgynous tendencies or energy. These aren't necessarily tied to sex. And they're not predictors as much as descriptives. Beyond that they aren't at all mutually exclusive, in fact live entwined in myriads of beautiful individual ways. When I talk about this it's more like I'm talking about the Tao or something, it's not about what men and women are, only a description of how people can express.
I have this one friend whom is transsexual. She told me once that the ancient Egyptians (I think it was) recognized some large number of genders. Like somewhere in the range of 15 if I remember correctly.
I've no idea if this is so but it could be so. We don't have to be so limited in our understanding of gender.
I know myself I feel pretty "female", however I often do stuff that people don't expect out of women. Honestly it pisses me off a bit when people characterize some of that behaivor and choices as masculine, perhaps cause it seems to me to reveal some limitation on what they're thinking can be female behaivor or limitation on femininity.
That's just my personal thing though, really people are gonna see me and everyone the way they're gonna. I can't stop that.
It also pains me to see the cultural boxes provided for men. It's so gotta suck for them, those boxes are too damn small.
My last job had me working in the most culturally "masculine" environment I'd ever been in and all the negative stuff about that cultural reinforcement was incredibly glaring to me. It just seemed so very painful.
The assumption challenging, you're right, given that it's where we start from they can be hard to question. Only a couple years ago I realized that I was still making assumptions about how and what men feel or even can feel. Shocked me when I stumbled across that. I wanted to share this insight but felt it would be almost impossible to do so.
You're welcome for the Ted talk. :)
There's also another movie that I watched a while back that I feel is very valuable. It's called Tough Guise: Violence, Media and the Crisis in Masculinity.
In some ways it's hard for me to watch but it is revealing. I'm really hope men, boys and everyone can see something like it that examines and questions the roles for men that have been culturally dictated. Changing those views can change this earth and our experience of it, I've no doubt of that.
no subject
I remember seeing a diagram in an article in Scientific American years (decades) ago about sexuality. It showed gender to be a continuous spectrum, and tore up the misconception that there are just poles with only rare perversity in between. I really wish humanity could get used to and enjoy the idea of diversity. It would be so much more healthy than this idea of purity that generally brings such dysfunction and illness.
I worry about males today. In a weird way they have become their own worst enemies. Expectations placed upon them by others and themselves are conflicting with good sense. As a result, young males particularly, are suiciding in horrifying numbers, especially here in Australia. Women have seen their expectations loosen up while men have, as you say, seen their cultural boxes become smaller.
I'll keep my eye out for that movie too. Thanks.
no subject
I remember seeing the Kinsey scale that kinda does the same thing for sexual orientation when I was 18. That shifted my perception in a positive way too. It's hard to even explain how or why. I was already aware I was bisexual (and now I'm not keen on that word cause it implies only two genders or sexes, but at least people know what I mean when I say it). I was okay with being bi too already. I guess it helped just to see my way as being part of a spectrum. It feels a bit cozier to think of it that way. :)
I know that there are a great many people who are happy about difference. I know these people and this is how I know. So I have hope. :)
And its true that many have more trouble with it but really life gets boring and painful if one tries to shut out all difference. It takes it's toll. Life does have a way of challenging our perceptions. So that's cool.
I worry about the men too. I do see change though and I really want for my part to try and be kind, not accommodating to what ails them but kind.
I do have hope. Which is good. :)
interesting post...
along the same vein, one of the more interesting topics for me comes from talking to transgenders. i've had several trans/gender queer friends and they always say, "i just never felt like a boy/girl". now, i've always been a tomboy who pretty much never understood the majority of straight girls (although i have no problem being friends with them) and i've never understood what it would be like to not feel like a girl... because when i really think about it, i feel like my brain is more "boy" anyways, haha. i'm a tomboy lesbian who hates skirts and makeup and other girly things, and i tend to like more masculine things (kung-fu, horror movies, explosions, video games, etc)... and i'm a huge pervert (seriously, sometimes i worry about telepathics existing and reading my thoughts). i even wonder sometimes what it would be like to have a penis... but despite all that, i still feel like a girl. so i really do wonder what the difference is for a trans person, but i also realize this is probably next to impossible to ever find out.
Re: interesting post...
You gave me great pain when you voiced the worry about telepaths hearing your "perversity"... I've just had a tooth out and the laugh and big grin that comment produced caused me to yelp with pain. :) Thank you and curse you at the same time. heheheh :)
When transexuals say they feel like they are the wrong sex, I think they are mistranslating an expectation that they've unwittingly taken on board. Society has these restrictive views of what a male or female should be, and people (no matter how intelligent) end up getting sucked in by them. It is my view that transexualism is a mistake caused by society screwing with people's minds. We need more feminine males and more masculine females and everything in between; they are extremely important for the health of society. Transexuality sadly takes those valuable people out of the breeding race so they can no longer contribute their important genes. For similar reasons I feel strongly that lesbians and gay males should be able to have kids.
Ecological science has taught us how diversity makes for a strong and healthy ecology.
I'm currently about a third of the way through James Surowiecki's cool non-fiction book "The Wisdom of Crowds" in which a major theme is how groups of people are able to act intelligently only to the degree that they are diverse. Remove diversity and you end up with lynch-mob-crazy mentality. We need diversity. It is not just a nice, feel-good, artsy, liberal thing; it may decide our survival as a species.
Re: interesting post...
Re: interesting post...
Of course I don't really know and I'm just theorising. I could be completely wrong in all this. I have no better access to other people's minds than anybody else. :)
I've heard some explanations of transexuality that mention imprinting and early effects of hormones on the baby brain, but I don't know how much credence to give them. I've heard them used to "explain" gayness as well, which always seemed silly to me.